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	<title>Comments on: fatten and die</title>
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	<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329</link>
	<description>community cultivation &#38; customer development</description>
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		<title>By: .:dydimustk:. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Broken Hearts and Christ-Eyes</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-254271</link>
		<dc:creator>.:dydimustk:. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Broken Hearts and Christ-Eyes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-254271</guid>
		<description>[...] Most conversations I have had lately eventually become a discussion of heart. On my personal blog, a post called fatten and die has sparked quite an enlivend discussion. It seems that so many times, the church get so preoccupied with what is right or wrong, that we forget to love. We think the world needs us to be right, or to fix them, rather than recognizing that what the world needs now, is love, sweet love.  These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Most conversations I have had lately eventually become a discussion of heart. On my personal blog, a post called fatten and die has sparked quite an enlivend discussion. It seems that so many times, the church get so preoccupied with what is right or wrong, that we forget to love. We think the world needs us to be right, or to fix them, rather than recognizing that what the world needs now, is love, sweet love.  These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JulieVW</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-176984</link>
		<dc:creator>JulieVW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 02:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-176984</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;dydimustk, what you say sounds lovely - but can you back it up with anything? (And how would you explain the post-cruxifiction deaths of Ananias, and Sapphira? I&#039;d say they were pretty well destroyed).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I fear that Matt is right; if a person really takes christianity seriously, they&#039;d have to cut down the trees, even if it means destorying the planet. You can&#039;t hide behind a &quot;Greenpeace Theology&quot; of it&#039;s-wrong-to-hurt-creation when it&#039;s wrong-er to offend a jealous god.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dydimustk, what you say sounds lovely &#8211; but can you back it up with anything? (And how would you explain the post-cruxifiction deaths of Ananias, and Sapphira? I&#8217;d say they were pretty well destroyed).</p>
<p>I fear that Matt is right; if a person really takes christianity seriously, they&#8217;d have to cut down the trees, even if it means destorying the planet. You can&#8217;t hide behind a &#8220;Greenpeace Theology&#8221; of it&#8217;s-wrong-to-hurt-creation when it&#8217;s wrong-er to offend a jealous god.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-176971</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-176971</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, what I was getting at above is more of the idea of... if your right hand causes you to sin then cut it off.  If there is an idol that they worshiped for generations will keeping it around cause some to sin?  Yes.  Then is it worth it to cut it down?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One thing I have noticed many people do is equate following God with comfort, easy of life, safety, and long life.  Cutting down the tree may not be the safe thing to do.  Following God causes many to die sooner than if they had not.  But, that can still be good.  I would rather die today following Christ than live hundreds of years and not be a Christ follower.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is better for those people to die young in a relationship with Christ than to live a long life.  Often times we forget that because it is very different from the teachings of western culture.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, what I was getting at above is more of the idea of&#8230; if your right hand causes you to sin then cut it off.  If there is an idol that they worshiped for generations will keeping it around cause some to sin?  Yes.  Then is it worth it to cut it down?</p>
<p>One thing I have noticed many people do is equate following God with comfort, easy of life, safety, and long life.  Cutting down the tree may not be the safe thing to do.  Following God causes many to die sooner than if they had not.  But, that can still be good.  I would rather die today following Christ than live hundreds of years and not be a Christ follower.</p>
<p>It is better for those people to die young in a relationship with Christ than to live a long life.  Often times we forget that because it is very different from the teachings of western culture.</p>
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		<title>By: dydimustk</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175811</link>
		<dc:creator>dydimustk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175811</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;JulieVW, except that he kept on promising not to destroy &#039;that way&#039; again, and made his final promise when he destroyed his son on the cross.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I believe that was his last action of destruction. Both the prophets and Jesus then spoke of the renewal and restoration of God&#039;s kingdom, which of seems to be in a state of always-not-yet until the new creation of heaven and earth.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But even when God was going about executing his wrath against his creation, I don&#039;t know that I would be willing to say that he desired that destruction. Maybe? I don&#039;t know.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JulieVW, except that he kept on promising not to destroy &#8216;that way&#8217; again, and made his final promise when he destroyed his son on the cross.</p>
<p>I believe that was his last action of destruction. Both the prophets and Jesus then spoke of the renewal and restoration of God&#8217;s kingdom, which of seems to be in a state of always-not-yet until the new creation of heaven and earth.</p>
<p>But even when God was going about executing his wrath against his creation, I don&#8217;t know that I would be willing to say that he desired that destruction. Maybe? I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: JulieVW</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175809</link>
		<dc:creator>JulieVW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jul 2006 16:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175809</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You know, I&#039;m not sure biblegod cares as much about the destruction of creation as we think he ought to.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;He seems to destroy stuff often - particularily when he&#039;s angry.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I&#8217;m not sure biblegod cares as much about the destruction of creation as we think he ought to.</p>
<p>He seems to destroy stuff often &#8211; particularily when he&#8217;s angry.</p>
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		<title>By: Broken Hearts and Christ-Eyes &#171; .:dydimustk:.</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175796</link>
		<dc:creator>Broken Hearts and Christ-Eyes &#171; .:dydimustk:.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175796</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] Most conversations I have had lately eventually become a discussion of heart. Fatten and die has sparked one such enlivened discussion. It seems that we get so preoccupied with what is right or wrong, that we forget to love. We think what the world needs of us is to be right, or to fix them. What the world needs now is love, sweet love It&#8217;s the only thing that there&#8217;s just too little of What the world needs now is love, sweet love, No not just for some but for everyone. - Jackie DeShannon [...]&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Most conversations I have had lately eventually become a discussion of heart. Fatten and die has sparked one such enlivened discussion. It seems that we get so preoccupied with what is right or wrong, that we forget to love. We think what the world needs of us is to be right, or to fix them. What the world needs now is love, sweet love It&#8217;s the only thing that there&#8217;s just too little of What the world needs now is love, sweet love, No not just for some but for everyone. &#8211; Jackie DeShannon [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175771</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175771</guid>
		<description>Jumping in - really interesting discussion.  two things though - in the past (Conquistadors, missionaries, etc) never seemed to think of the consequences of their actions.  I believe that this is a current problem as well - very few people are thinking of the whole system - they are thinking of the immediate.  if I can convert one person, or a whole village - my job is done, and I&#039;ll get a place in heaven....not realizing that converting a village may turn them away from a warlike lifestyle and the whole village/tribe may be destroyed.  Even today I see and fear for those who speak the Word, but don&#039;t care about the World.  Yes - we must be separate from the World, but we still must live in the World and be stewards of the World.  I&#039;ve seen far too many Christians who believe that God will provide and so i don&#039;t have to recycle, or worry about global-warming, etc, etc.

the second thing I&#039;d like to say is this - I think what Thomas is saying above is close to what Paul told the Romans.  yes, you pray to Apollo, and Zeus - but the God I pray to is greater than those gods...and so you don&#039;t have to destroy those statues, or temples...but turn your belief to the greater God (or something like that - it has been awhile since i&#039;ve read the apostles).

so - my two cents...

interesting side-bar about mission work.  In Japan, when a person became a Christian - no one in the Church really believed it until after five years or so - by that point it showed that the new believer was committed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jumping in &#8211; really interesting discussion.  two things though &#8211; in the past (Conquistadors, missionaries, etc) never seemed to think of the consequences of their actions.  I believe that this is a current problem as well &#8211; very few people are thinking of the whole system &#8211; they are thinking of the immediate.  if I can convert one person, or a whole village &#8211; my job is done, and I&#8217;ll get a place in heaven&#8230;.not realizing that converting a village may turn them away from a warlike lifestyle and the whole village/tribe may be destroyed.  Even today I see and fear for those who speak the Word, but don&#8217;t care about the World.  Yes &#8211; we must be separate from the World, but we still must live in the World and be stewards of the World.  I&#8217;ve seen far too many Christians who believe that God will provide and so i don&#8217;t have to recycle, or worry about global-warming, etc, etc.</p>
<p>the second thing I&#8217;d like to say is this &#8211; I think what Thomas is saying above is close to what Paul told the Romans.  yes, you pray to Apollo, and Zeus &#8211; but the God I pray to is greater than those gods&#8230;and so you don&#8217;t have to destroy those statues, or temples&#8230;but turn your belief to the greater God (or something like that &#8211; it has been awhile since i&#8217;ve read the apostles).</p>
<p>so &#8211; my two cents&#8230;</p>
<p>interesting side-bar about mission work.  In Japan, when a person became a Christian &#8211; no one in the Church really believed it until after five years or so &#8211; by that point it showed that the new believer was committed.</p>
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		<title>By: dydimustk</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175517</link>
		<dc:creator>dydimustk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175517</guid>
		<description>Julie, thanks for the link!

Matt, what you described is, I feel, part of this same error of Christendom. The assumption that making people believe right (orthodoxy) and live right (orthopraxy) will somehow save them, or convert them, or make them good enough for God&#039;s grace. It would make much more sense for me if the missionaries had spent more time demonstrating God&#039;s love, and grace, and healing presence in their community. As the villiagers learned more about the God of the missionaries, they could have explained that our God is not only the God of the trees, but of the water, and land, and animals, and all people. 

Does the God you believe in seek the destruction of any part of His creation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, thanks for the link!</p>
<p>Matt, what you described is, I feel, part of this same error of Christendom. The assumption that making people believe right (orthodoxy) and live right (orthopraxy) will somehow save them, or convert them, or make them good enough for God&#8217;s grace. It would make much more sense for me if the missionaries had spent more time demonstrating God&#8217;s love, and grace, and healing presence in their community. As the villiagers learned more about the God of the missionaries, they could have explained that our God is not only the God of the trees, but of the water, and land, and animals, and all people. </p>
<p>Does the God you believe in seek the destruction of any part of His creation?</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175500</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 15:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175500</guid>
		<description>JulieVW... if they worshiped the tree is was idolatry and cutting it down may have been a good thing.  Following God isn&#039;t always nice, comfortable, or easy.... in truth many times it is the exact opposite.  Though, I would have told them to cut down the tree I would have helped them plant new trees to help them with the impact on their lives while removing the idol they had been worshiping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JulieVW&#8230; if they worshiped the tree is was idolatry and cutting it down may have been a good thing.  Following God isn&#8217;t always nice, comfortable, or easy&#8230;. in truth many times it is the exact opposite.  Though, I would have told them to cut down the tree I would have helped them plant new trees to help them with the impact on their lives while removing the idol they had been worshiping.</p>
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		<title>By: JulieVW</title>
		<link>http://thomasknoll.info/fatten-and-die-90329/comment-page-1#comment-175457</link>
		<dc:creator>JulieVW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dydimustk.com/blog/?p=90329#comment-175457</guid>
		<description>Have you listened to the Speaking of Faith episode with Wang Maathai??? Most of the program is about her work with women and the environment, but she tells a story that fits with what you&#039;re thinking in this post. She talks about growing up in Africa where a certain type of tree was respect and revered because the villagers believed it was the tree of the gods.

BUT THEN the missionaries came, converted everyone to Christianity, and told them to cut down the trees because it was idolotry to honor the trees. 
Now the village is tree-less and dealing with serious consequences - errosion, no firewood, no shade, etc. 
 

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/plantingthefuture/index.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you listened to the Speaking of Faith episode with Wang Maathai??? Most of the program is about her work with women and the environment, but she tells a story that fits with what you&#8217;re thinking in this post. She talks about growing up in Africa where a certain type of tree was respect and revered because the villagers believed it was the tree of the gods.</p>
<p>BUT THEN the missionaries came, converted everyone to Christianity, and told them to cut down the trees because it was idolotry to honor the trees.<br />
Now the village is tree-less and dealing with serious consequences &#8211; errosion, no firewood, no shade, etc. </p>
<p><a href="http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/plantingthefuture/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/plantingthefuture/index.shtml</a></p>
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